[News] Mass Kick 03/04/10

[Cyril0321]

The following members have been kicked out of Visions because they were inactive and/or because Visions' Council have received reported harassment involving them and/or they don't have any records in Visions' application database.

[Zeru1]

That was quite unexpected, I mean I talked to casey like a few hours ago in game...

[Kirno]

WAHAHAHAHAHAHA

yah try to tell us before going inactive

[BloodEternity]

I managed to be inactive for 1/2 a year before coming back to mabi...
My english and SS teachers were bi<BEEP>es
So I have to handwrite every homework and you ask me to give a 12 page essay and if it has a single grammar error or anything, I have to rewrite it?!
(and NX issues)...(and asian parents issues)...

:|

[LuffyDD]

toxic?!
NUUUUUUUUUUuu

[Encore*]

3 things:
1) "they were inactive and/or because Visions' Council have received reported harassment involving them" <--- HUGE difference, please classify each individual as being either inactive or were reported to be harassing others.

2) who are the people who decided this? under what grounds were they able to reach this decision? if it was the council, the members would like to know how they reached these decisions as many of these members that were just kicked are our friends (i speak on behalf of many members).

3) these mass kicks weren't announced to the guild en masse, i heard about it in passing, but i dismissed them as merely rumors. i'm surprised these people were kicked without any warning or notices as to when and why they would be kicked.

please post WHY these people are kicked and your reasons and criteria for kicking them. i know this would be in the best interest for all persons involved. thanks

[lampert]

One - the kicked out members were only listed
for information purposes, as it can be embarrising.
We will not be posting out under what field they were
classified as.

Two - the Council decided this, and after multiple hours
of discussion and planning, we picked these members.

Three - Most of these members WERE in fact warned.
Most of the members were kicked from inactivity
(which we decided was 4+ weeks of inactivity)

Also, it will remain private information just WHY these
members were kicked out. If said members ask us, we will
tell them, and they may tell who they want.

Remember, we just have what is best for Visions in mind.

[Encore*]

lampert wrote:

One - the kicked out members were only listed for information purposes, as it can be embarrising. We will not be posting out under what field they were classified as.

1 - i can see that, but quite frankly, they're already kicked and are shamed for it. if you wanted them to not be humiliated, you should have done this privately instead of posting it in PUBLIC forums (not even the decency to post in guild discussions forums )

lampert wrote:

Two - the Council decided this, and after multiple hours of discussion and planning, we picked these members.

2- we voted for you councils to make the right choice, but not informing us of how you arrived at these decisions does make some of us worried and for good reason (once again, i am speaking on behalf of fellow members). this makes many people concerned because we don't know if we will suddenly log in one day and find out.. "OH SH! WTH! WHY AM I NOT IN VISIONS NO MORE!?" when we were just expecting another day as usual.

lampert wrote:

Three - Most of these members WERE in fact warned. Most of the members were kicked from inactivity (which we decided was 4+ weeks of inactivity)

even if the people subject to removal were notified beforehand, what about the rest of the guild? our input doesn't matter? we don't have any say in this at all? we voted for you to make the right choice. if we find that you are in violation either civilly or morally, i believe we reserve the right to impose our will on those who we have believed to have wrought us from our rights and safety.

here is a list of people who fall under your "criteria" and are still in the guild:

Desporous
Hyenas03
Invoke
Keshimogu
Nasido
Visionsguild (i know about this one, this one is ok )

so why weren't these people kicked if they fell under your criteria? also, you said "Most of these members WERE in fact warned"... MOST is not ALL - this makes things distressing as well. maybe not for others, but for me, it does.

lampert wrote:

Remember, we just have what is best for Visions in mind.

i'm sure you do, every tyrant in history said the same thing (eg. hitler, mao ze dong, stalin, etc.). people like america and other modern democratic countries because they keep us informed of large social changes. this mass kick is akin to a mass deportation of legal immigrants. we should be informed of these motions before they are enacted so as to reduce the blow and anxiety. this will not only reduce the level of shock and surprise, but it would also enable us to have more faith in our elected officials.

[lampert]

1 - i was slightly upset that their names were announce
and if i had been present i would have advised otherwise.

2 - all members are told of why they were kicked and they have
the ability to talk with us. And like we said, we arrived upon these
decisions about inactiveness and harrasment issues.

3 - We are council because we know how to govern and rule efficiently
(ok maybe those arent the best choice of words) and your input
would matter, and if you believe we violate your rights you are free to
1. talk with us
or
2. leave

We do not wish for you to leave but you may do as you please. We have no real power over you and you may do as you wish. We are here to try and bring you the best mabinogi experience possible.
And the rest of the guild shouldnt worry too much of their standings. If they are actually active enough to read the forums, they have nothing to worry about.

Also, I will personally look into those inactive members who were not kicked. Thank you for subjecting people to extermination. I can really see you have their best interest in mind.

[Cyril0321]

I was responsible for making this announcement public.

I made this announcement because of three reasons:

1) We have to address this as this is, a guild news. We have to notify guild members about the things that are happening in the guild, but Visions' news is also to benefit prospective members so that they keep updated on what is happening to the guild before applying/reapplying.

2) We have to keep a certain standard in the guild, and I believe it is important to show our current members and the public that we enforce our standards. This will allow our guild to maintain good expectations.

3) This announcement was made public because members whom were kicked from the guild do not anymore have access to guild discussions or private guild-member-only forums. Thus, it is important to keep this announcement public so that the members who were kicked are informed.

Expelling a member from the guild is always a dirty job; it’s just not easy to do without sounding a bit harsh. And trust me that it was not easy for the Council to make these decisions. But we have to do what is right, and what we believe is the best for the guild.

We are aware that by making this announcement public that some members may become embarrassed about this. Well, all I can say is, I am sorry but they have already embarrassed Visions in the past with their actions so I do not understand why these members should not deserve the same embarrassment they gave Visions. If they all have been good members, then there would have been nothing to worry about.

While we are certain about our decisions, it is still always possible that we could make mistakes as a result of misunderstanding or lack of information. This is why, it is everyone’s responsibility to communicate and voice out information to the Councils or VPAs, to share important helpful facts to better the guild.

So unless proven otherwise, these decisions are final and this announcement will remain public.

[xTeknox]

o.o...
i think its fine to kick inactive people but ill assume something was reported on Toxic? because he wasnt inactive...

[Yahni~]

I laughed when I saw that Encore compared the Council to Hitler...That's like comparing an ant to a grizzly bear.

And it's a little more than obvious on who got kicked for what reason. Don't really need to ask on that one...

And yes, the Council was voted on by the people of Visions. So why is the people of Visions complaining? There is a reason why the Council controls Visions. If the Council asked everyone's opinion on everything, nothing would get done.

[ZER0808]

wat did toxic do anywayz??????

[Encore*]

Yahni~ wrote:

I laughed when I saw that Encore compared the Council to Hitler...That's like comparing an ant to a grizzly bear. And it's a little more than obvious on who got kicked for what reason. Don't really need to ask on that one... And yes, the Council was voted on by the people of Visions. So why is the people of Visions complaining? There is a reason why the Council controls Visions. If the Council asked everyone's opinion on everything, nothing would get done.

you are only exemplifying my analogy of council to hitler more. the people of germany voted for hitler and once he won, he thought he knew what was best for germany and see what that resulted in. i'm not saying the council should ask us (the members) about everything; i'm saying we deserve to have a say in these such a large scale and controversial actions that were so suddenly imposed. we trusted the council to do the right thing and in this scenario, what they should have done is to AT LEAST inform the members of what they planned to do. don't believe me? look at this thread. each non-council member is dissenting in some form against this mass-kick.

now don't get me wrong, i do concur with kicking certain people. but doing it in such a manner with such spontaneity promotes dissension, not fun.

Governor Davis of California was impeached because he did things without the consent of the public even though he should have. he created a rift in the population that would not have existed had he been responsible and thoughtful in his actions. The people of California voted for him; he acted "inside" his jurisdiction, but left out the most important part. He did not listen to the voice of the very people that elected him to office. That is why he was impeached

[Falmosta]

They have been discussing it for over a week. I heard a few of them mention what they planned to do and I fully understand that choice have to be made for a guild. I've saw way many guilds including my own die form inactivity's.

I also heard about this originally through guild chat from a council themselves. I was curious so I asked one about it and I heard the debates of how many different ideas they had about reducing the guild size.

Trust me, The first opinion which looks like it got shot down involved each council giving a list of select people not to kick form the guild. It looks like they decided against it after i talked to other council members about it.

The first opinion they were considering would be in less of the interested of the guild then the one they took.

Honestly asking for 6 names form each council and VPA and if a name is repeated then no the choose is a dud for one of the members which would reduce the amount of players drastically would have killed the guild itself.

How I came across this was through sheer curiosity. It ended up getting my thoughts smack in the middle of guild politics which i was trying to take a break form for a while after my guild fell out to be a normal player that JUST happens to be in a guild.